(Rebroadcast) Carlos Moreno, author of A Kids Book About the Tulsa Race Massacre, talks about the historic attack by a white mob on the neighborhood and Black residents of Greenwood.
(Rebroadcast) Carlos Moreno, author of A Kids Book About the Tulsa Race Massacre, talks about the historic attack by a white mob on the neighborhood and Black residents of Greenwood.
A Kids Book About The Tulsa Race Massacre (view book)
Full Book Description:
The Tulsa Race Massacre happened between May 31 and June 1, 1921, when a white mob attacked the predominantly Black Greenwood neighborhood of Tulsa, Oklahoma. To this day, this is one of the worst incidents of racial violence in American history—and one of the most forgotten. This book will help kids understand what happened on that day in 1921 and encourage them to learn from our past and keep history from repeating itself.
About the Author:
Carlos Moreno grew up in Silicon Valley, California. When he moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma, as a young website developer, Greenwood welcomed him with open arms. He lives in Tulsa to this day, now with his wife and daughter, working as a graphic designer, writer, and community advocate.
*If you want to be on a future episode of A Kids Book About: The Podcast or if you have a question you’d like us to consider, have a grownup email us at listen@akidsco.com and we’ll send you the details.
A Kids Book About: The Podcast
S1 E018, Carlos Talks About the Tulsa Race Massacre
[INTRODUCTION]
Matthew: What was the Tulsa Race Massacre?
Pritam: The Tulsa Race Massacre was when a mob of white people attacked the Black community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. This happened because the white community was racist and they felt threatened when the Black community was growing affluent in Tulsa.
Kathy: The Tulsa Race Massacre was a horrific government sanctioned war against the Greenwood area in our community, primarily killing over 300 Black people, destroying hundreds of homes and businesses that provided people's livelihood and wealth for their families.
Carlos: A hundred years ago, there was an attack on a neighborhood called Greenwood in Tulsa, Oklahoma and this attack resulted in the destruction of 40 blocks worth of property, 1,256 homes, and resulted in the death of 300 people. And it occurred on the night of May 31st and during the day of June 1st in 1921.
[MEET OUR GUEST]
Matthew: Welcome to A Kids Book About: The Podcast! I’m Matthew. I’m a teacher, a librarian, and I’m your host. The voices you heard at the top of our show were from Pritam, Kathy, and Carlos.
Each week we talk about the big things going on in your world with a different author from our A Kids Book About series.
Carlos: Hi. My name is Carlos Moreno. I am a Latino graphic designer and writer. And I'm the author of A Kids Book About the Tulsa Race Massacre.
Matthew: Today’s conversation is for everyone. As with other shows, we made this episode to be listened to by kids and also their grownups. But unlike other episodes that focus on emotions, identity, or experiences, this episode will focus on history. And unlike other episodes where the grownup near you may have the language or the knowledge to talk to you about the topic, this one might be new for them, too.
On June 1st, 2021, the 100th anniversary of the Tulsa Race Massacre, we published a free-to-download book by Carlos Moreno called A Kids Book About the Tulsa Race Massacre. It’s a book written for ages 6 and up. It’s powerful and factual and challenging. And it’s available to all for free at akidsbookabout.com.
Carlos: I really loved kind of digging into the history and getting to know these families and getting to know just the history of my own city and the place where I live. You know, this is a really important history that I think that we need to know here in Tulsa. Because Greenwood was known all across the country, it's a story that I think people all over the country need to read about. And you find common themes, things happened in Greenwood happened all over the country. The good and the bad. And so I think people connect to it almost anywhere they are.
Matthew: We’re packing a lot into this episode today because while I will always commend you for asking questions and finding your own conclusions and understandings, I think it’s important that history be understood as clearly as possible. In fact, that will only serve to make your questions stronger.
So let’s start with a neighborhood in Tulsa called Greenwood.
Carlos: What's important to know about Greenwood is that it was a very large neighborhood of 40 blocks. And there were about 10,000 people who lived in Greenwood.
There were all different classes of people from working class people to business owners and entrepreneurs, to very wealthy people, all living together in this community. And it was a very communal neighborhood, everyone shared, and everyone worked together to build this neighborhood together.
Greenwood was originally Native American-owned land. It was owned by the Creek and Cherokee tribes. In 1905, there were some Black business owners who had moved into this was Indian territory before it became the state of Oklahoma. And they bought this land from the Native tribes and they founded their own mostly Black community.
This was during a time when there were more than 50, all-Black towns in Indian territory. And so Greenwood was one of these communities, amongst many, many other Black-owned communities in Indian territory during this time.
Matthew: Listeners, think of the most popular cities that come to your brain. What are the cities people are always talking about? What are the places everyone wants to visit? What are the places you know about not because you’ve visited them, but because you’ve just heard so many people talk about them.
Greenwood was one of those places.
Carlos: Newspapers, like the Chicago Defender, newspapers, like W.E.B. Dubois’ newspaper, The Crisis, and other black newspapers at the time, all across the country, they knew about Greenwood. Greenwood hosted many of the most prominent black leaders at the time.
I mentioned W.E.B. Dubois. He visited Greenwood. Booker T. Washington. He also visited Greenwood.
There were many jazz musicians, very early jazz musicians that would tour the country and Greenwood would be one of their stops. After 1921, Count Basie visited Greenwood in 1927 and really formed his sound because of the music that was happening in Greenwood.
Greenwood played a very important part in the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 60s. And it was written about all across the country as well. And even Prince in his autobiography wrote about Greenwood and in 2014 was working on a project to teach the country about Greenwood.
Matthew: Booker T. Washington. W.E.B. Dubois. Count Basie. Prince! These are just a few people who knew Greenwood intimately.
And one of the things that made Greenwood so accessible to the rest of the country? It was built along a railroad.
Carlos: So one of the most important things to know about Greenwood is that it was built along the railroad.
Oil was discovered in Oklahoma in 1901. So back during this time, the very early 1900s, if you had your businesses and your community along the railroad tracks, you would be tremendously successful.
It was like being on the internet today. You know, if you have a business and you're on the internet, you're going to be super successful. If you're not on the internet, you're probably not going to be as successful as a business.
The railroad was exactly that. So communities that were near the railroad, really had a huge advantage when it came to business and commerce and drawing people in.
So everybody from across the country that who would stop in Oklahoma, they would stop in Greenwood because Greenwood was one of these railroad stops and everything that you wanted was right there.
So hat shops and clothing stores and movie theaters and candy stores, and if you wanted to get a haircut, if you wanted to hear music, everything you wanted was right there in Greenwood. Right there in this neighborhood.
Matthew: So this beautiful, thriving, amazing neighborhood called Greenwood… it seems like it had absolutely anything you could want, right?
Well, what do you call the feeling of seeing something someone else has and wanting it for yourself?
Go ahead. Call it out.
Jealousy is a great word for that. Coveting is also a word that works well.
The people who lived in Tulsa on the other side of the railroad tracks were mostly white people. And those white people, especially a handful of them in positions of power in the city, they wanted Greenwood for themselves.
Carlos: A few business owners on the other side of downtown, they wanted the entire downtown area for themselves. They wanted to build their own train depot and they wanted to have their own commercial district right where Greenwood was. And in order for them to do that, they had to drive the community of Greenwood further north, outside of the downtown area.
Matthew: And how do you get a neighborhood of people with successful businesses and homes and established lives to give up those things and relocate to a different part of town so that you can take over their neighborhood?
You know the answer to that question, don’t you? It’s a terrible answer. And it’s exactly what happened.
Carlos: And so this was a planned attack on the neighborhood of Greenwood in an attempt to steal Greenwood's land. Greenwood had something that the white community wanted and so they had planned at this attack. They coordinated it with the police department, with the national guard and the mayor and the city commission. So these businessmen who were in power collaborated with the leaders of Tulsa to steal this land away from the Greenwood community.
Matthew: When I first heard about this event (and maybe when you first heard about it, too), it was referred to as the Tulsa Race Riot. But all along so far, you’ve heard us refer to it as the Tulsa Race Massacre.
A “riot” is when a crowd disturbs the peace in an often violent way. A “massacre”, on the other hand, is a brutal slaughter of people. It is taking the lives of a great amount of people with force and, often, when they are defenseless.
Carlos offers up some insight around the language used to describe this event.
Carlos: So there's a couple of reasons why the event was called a riot and the first reason is that business owners have insurance. So if something happens to your business, like a flood or maybe a car crashes into your business or something like that, and you have insurance, you get paid by the insurance company to rebuild your business.
All of these businesses that were destroyed in this attack, they had filed claims with insurance companies to try to get money to rebuild their businesses.
Well, the insurance companies denied all of them because they said, “Well, if this event was a riot, then we're not going to pay any of these insurance claims.”
The second reason is that the mayor and the city commission blamed this event on the people of Greenwood. There were 55 Black men who were criminally charged with inciting a riot, and these charges were not dropped until 1996.
After 1996, we could start having a conversation about what this event really was. We acknowledged that it wasn't the fault of these 55 Black men. The police department apologized to the city for their involvement. And we could start calling this event what it really was.
Matthew: When talking about the Tulsa Race Massacre, language is critically important. It’s what kept Black business owners from being able to rebuild and save their businesses. It determines who is held accountable and responsible when crimes are committed. And language, without a doubt, informs how others will remember something and how they’ll talk about it in the future.
And so I want to play this next part for you so that you can gain another word in describing what happened in Tulsa to use along with all you’ve learned so far.
Carlos: Massacre, to me, implies that people were the target of this attack. And it doesn't really fit with a lot of the other historical massacres that were occurring in other places like Wilmington. Or you may have heard of the Chicago riots in 1919, or the Rosewood Massacre.
The target of this attack wasn't the people. The job of the national guard was to evacuate the people from Greenwood. And even though there was a lot of loss of life, even though 300 people died during this attack, the attack was to steal the land.
And so I think even a more maybe correct or more appropriate name would be an invasion.
Matthew: When we return, a look at Tulsa today and where we go from here. Right after this quick break.
[BREAK]
Matthew: Welcome back to A Kids Book About: The Podcast. On today’s episode we’re talking about The Tulsa Race Massacre with Carlos Moreno. Joining me also is Kathy Taylor, former mayor of Tulsa from 2006 to 2009.
Kathy: Hello, I'm Kathy Taylor. I'm a mom. I'm a grandmother. I'm a former mayor, a public servant, and hopefully a community activator. Those are my goals and that's that's me.
Matthew: I invited Kathy to join the conversation to talk about where Tulsa is now and what work lies ahead.
And since we’re all meeting each other, why don’t we take a minute to check in. You’ve heard about the history of Greenwood and the events of June 1st, 1921. How does thinking about the Tulsa Race Massacre and the people of Greenwood make you feel?
Pritam: When I think of the Tulsa Race Massacre and the time period when it happened it makes me feel very angry that so many Black people were killed, murdered and lynched unjustly. And this happened on a very large scale in the Tulsa Race Massacre.
Carlos: They're very complex feelings. You know, hearing about all the success and all the wonderful things that were in Greenwood. And just all of the amazing people that lived in Greenwood and learning about all of their lives brought me a great amount of joy. And then learning that everything that they had built for 15 years all being destroyed over two days was just, it was very hard to learn about, to hear about. And to learn that it was the whole thing was planned.
You know, this is information that is pretty new, even here in Tulsa. A lot of us learned about the Tulsa Race Massacre in a very different way. We learned about it through the story of Dick Roland and Sarah Page. And a lot of us thought that was the reason; that their encounter in the elevator, and this newspaper article that said that he hurt her, that that was the cause of this destruction of Greenwood.
Kathy: It makes me feel very sad. It makes me feel very angry and it makes me feel motivated to make, not only make sure this never happens again, but play my part in helping for reparations for the survivors and the descendants of those who were killed.
Matthew: Reparations. That might be a new word for you.
Kathy: Reparations have happened all over this world, when there are horrific massacres or events like this, to repair, to repay, those people that the government and humanity harmed. And in this case, harmed in one of the worst racial violence events in our in our country, in the United States, with killing over 300 people.
[LISTENER QUESTION]
Matthew: Pritam, in California, asks a question for all of us.
Pritam: A question I have about the Tulsa Race Massacre is why we don’t learn about it in school?
Matthew: I want to be straightforward with you, Pritam. I did not get a direct answer for your question because education works so differently from state to state and from county to county.
Listeners, if you’re asking that same question, I want to encourage you to reach out to your school, to your teachers, and to your administrators. Ask them if they’ve heard of the Tulsa Race Massacre. Tell them what you know and share why you think others should be learning about this and other events in our history. Share the link with them to download A Kids Book About the Tulsa Race Massacre. It’s an easy one to remember: akidsbookabout.com.
Let them know you’re ready to talk about it. And that you think others are ready, too. Sometimes that’s all it takes to begin to make change happen.
For now, let me invite back on Kathy and Carlos to share Tulsa’s work so far in that change.
Kathy: Well, I grew up in Oklahoma and moved to Tulsa in the early eighties. I did not learn about it when I was in school and my friends, my contemporaries, who grew up in Tulsa, went to school all of their lives in Tulsa, one of whom was another former mayor, did not learn about it when she was in school either.
Matthew: Change can be very slow, as you might have guessed. Especially when the changes you’re working to accomplish might be the same changes others are working to prevent.
But that doesn’t mean that change isn’t happening.
Kathy: So when Mayor Savage was in office, which was about the late nineties, early 2000s, I think is when the discussion about the history first began.
We are fortunate to have had one of the lawyers involved was Buck Franklin. His son, John Hope Franklin, became one of the renowned African American historians in the world at Duke University. And he maintained his connection with Tulsa and began to come and have that discussion.
Mayor Savage issued the first apology on behalf of the city to those killed, their descendants, and the survivors. And in 2007, we raised money to offer to bring every survivor to Tulsa, to honor them, and to publicly apologize, and to also have the judge who had filed the charges against Mr. Roland, who's talked about in the book, formally released and expunged because they still were on the books from 1921.
Matthew: Mr. Roland, or Dick Roland, was the man mentioned earlier by Carlos. He, a Black man, was in an elevator with a white woman named Sarah Page, who claimed that Mr. Roland hurt her in the elevator. This interaction and Mr. Roland’s arrest was used as an excuse for the start of the Tulsa Race Massacre, an invasion we now know was planned all along.
Kathy: And so I think the discussion has continued from then. I think that attitude has has significantly changed as we have received more national attention, more books have been written about it, and we are we are having that we are having that hard discussion about how do we keep history from repeating itself and how do we repair what happened.
Matthew: Another word I want to give you to help you understand the intention of some of the things that are going on in Tulsa is the word ‘reconciliation’.
Kathy: Reconciliation means coming together with understanding. Coming together with empathy and understanding over what has happened in the past.
And to me, it is a base from which you move forward to work to ensure history does not repeat itself. That you leave the world a better place than it has been in the past or that you found it.
Carlos: You know, in a lot of ways, what you see in Greenwood today is a community that is divided by a highway. That's divided by housing segregation. There was housing segregation in Greenwood until 1963. There was school segregation between Black and white Tulsa until 1971. So we're only one generation away from having a very divided city.
And you see this not just in Tulsa, but in many, many cities all over the country where, there's a Black part of town and a white part of town. Or that might be in your city, a Latino part of town and a white part of town, or maybe an Asian part of town. And I think that these types of segregations really don’t allow people to get to know each other and talk to each other.
When I first moved to Greenwood, they welcomed me with open arms. It didn't matter to them that I looked different from them and came from a different place and maybe listened to different music or ate different food or read different books, you know? They just wanted to learn all about me and I wanted to learn all about them.
It might sound really simple, but having conversations with people who might not necessarily look like you or listen to the same music you listen to or eat the same food that you eat or worship in the same church that you worship in.
I think having these cross-cultural and cross-racial conversations are hugely important. And supporting Black-owned businesses and supporting Latino businesses and Asian businesses and just getting out there and exploring your city and everything it has to offer, not just maybe your little corner of your little corner of town, you know?
[CLOSING]
Matthew: Thank you to Carlos Moreno, author of A Kids Book About the Tulsa Race Massacre, for joining us today. Thank you to Mayor Kathy Taylor as well. And thanks to our very special kid voice for helping make this episode what it is.
Pritam: My name is Pritam. I am 12 years old, and I live in California. My favorite things are playing frisbee, building things, and reading about cultures, geography, history, and politics—especially in graphic novel form.
Matthew: Thank you, Pritam! If you want to be on a future episode of A Kids Book About: The Podcast or if you have a question you’d like us to consider, have a grownup email us at listen@akidspodcastabout.com and we’ll send you the details.
A Kids Book About: the Podcast is written, edited, and produced by me, Matthew Winner, with help from Chad Michael Snavely and the team at Sound On Studios. Our executive producer is Jelani Memory. And this show was brought to you by A Kids Podcast About.
Subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and wherever podcasts are found, and if you liked this episode, consider sharing it with a friend, teacher, or grownup.
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