Dr. Courtney Wells and Lee Wells, authors of A Kids Book About Pronouns, talk about encouraging kids AND grownups to get uncomfortable, learn new things, make mistakes, and choose to keep growing.
Dr. Courtney Wells and Lee Wells, authors of A Kids Book About Pronouns, talk about encouraging kids AND grownups to get uncomfortable, learn new things, make mistakes, and choose to keep growing.
A Kids Book About Pronouns (view book)
Full Book Description:
Pronouns are a meaningful part of identifying who we are. We can’t know someone’s preferred pronouns just by looking at them or knowing their name, so it’s important to ask! This book encourages kids AND grownups to get uncomfortable, learn new things, make mistakes, and choose to keep growing. It’s not about always getting it right—it’s about being loving and continuous in our effort.
About the Author:
Dr. Courtney Wells (they/them) and Lee Wells (she/her) are queer, married Chicagoans committed to justice and inclusivity for their and all kids. Courtney is an award-winning trauma psychologist with a super cool TEDx talk on dismantling the gender binary. Lee is a therapist working with LGBTQ+ kids and families and co-founder of Mind Chicago.
*If you want to be on a future episode of A Kids Book About: The Podcast or if you have a question you’d like us to consider, have a grownup email us at listen@akidsco.com and we’ll send you the details.
A Kids Book About: The Podcast
Courtney and Lee Talk About Pronouns
[INTRODUCTION]
Matthew: What are pronouns?
Lee: First, nouns are people, places, or things. And pronouns are words that stand in for a noun.
Jonah: Hi, my name is Jonah. I use he/him pronouns.
Courtney: I'm Courtney and I use, they/them/theirs.
Lee: And I am Lee, and I use she/her/hers.
Matthew: Welcome to A Kids Book About: The Podcast! I’m Matthew. I’m a teacher, a librarian, and I’m your host.
The voices you heard just a moment ago were from Jonah, Lee, and Courtney.
Each week we talk about the big things going on in your world with a different author from our A Kids Book About series.
Lee: Hi, my name is Lee Wells and I use she/her pronouns. I'm a white, queer Chicagoan and a therapist for kids and parents.
Courtney: And I am Courtney Wells and I use they/them pronouns. I am a white, trans, non-binary Chicagoan and a therapist for grownups.
And we are the authors of A Kids Book About Pronouns.
[TOPIC FOUNDATION]
Matthew: Hello dear listeners! I am so excited to be having this conversation with you today because it is a conversation I am literally having with students each day at my elementary school.
Knowing what name a student wants to use, how they identify, and how they would like to be addressed is all about making space for others, communicating their value in that space, and affirming that they belong in community with us.
I use he/they pronouns. That means I’m okay with people saying “I like Mr. Winner. He is a really fun librarian.” And I’m also okay with people saying “I like Mr. Winner. They are a really fun librarian.”
He and They are the pronouns that I use to describe myself. They are what pronouns I feel like fit me best when I think about who I am and how I would describe myself.
But we should unpack that. Courtney, what do we mean when we talk about what pronouns we feel fit us best?
Courtney: So first of all, it's okay to not know what pronouns best fit for you.
This is a tricky question to answer because everyone's experience is a little bit different. And so some people try many pronouns before they find the ones that make them feel like themselves. Sometimes people know that the pronouns that were given to them don't make them feel like themselves, but they don't know which ones do. So some people feel just right at a home with the pronouns that were given to them.
And there are many, many, many, many, many, many more combinations, um, and experiences. And no matter where you are right now, it's okay to be exactly where you are.
Matthew: The pronouns we encounter most often throughout our day are he/him/his and she/her/hers.
Jonah: Most of the people at my school that I know use he/him pronouns or she/her pronouns.
Matthew: Right, Jonah. But there are so many options beyond just those two!
Lee: Yeah, there are endless pronoun options and combinations. And some people, again, choose not to use pronouns at all.
So, for example, some people might use she/he/hers, or they/them/theirs, or maybe even a combination like he/they/she.
And other people may even choose to use something called neo pronouns. And “neo” means new. These are newer pronouns that we may have never heard before. And an example of those are ze/zem/zers.
There are so many because different people describe themselves differently. Many people ask us why others use certain pronouns. But we like to say, rather than asking “why”, it is more helpful to ask “what”. For example, what pronouns do you use?
[PERSONAL CONNECTION TO TOPIC]
Matthew: Courtney and Lee each shared their pronouns in the introduction. Can you remember what pronouns they use?
Courtney: So I'm Courtney and I use they/them/theirs. And previously, many years ago, I used she/her/hers.
But over time I sort of felt like they/them/theirs pronouns were a better fit for me. They aligned more. They fit better with who I am and how I am in this world. And I had lots of family and friends, colleagues, people I worked with who wanted to support me in that.
Lee: And I am Lee and, again, I use she/her/hers. And no one told me to use those pronouns. But those ones just really feel right for me and I've always used them.
Matthew: The pronouns that feel right for you today may not be the ones that feel right for you in the future. Know what? It’s okay to change them, to try out new ones, until you find what feels the most you.
Jonah: People might want to change their pronouns because they feel like a different person with different pronouns, or they think it's better for them, or they just have opinions on it and they think that they like it and they do it. And it's a better fit for them.
Courtney: Absolutely. It is absolutely okay to change the pronouns that you're using. It's okay if they change daily, weekly, hourly. You get to decide what fits best for you and what, like you said, what feels best on your body when you say it, when you use it to describe who you are.
And I think to your point, there are certain environments, be it school, be it home, be it out with friends, where we feel more safe to explore, to try on different pronouns, to say, “I think this might be me”. And to not always get it “right”. To decide that something else fits better.
Matthew: Let’s take a quick break. And when we return, Courtney and Lee talk about the best thing to do when we’re not sure of something.
Courtney: I think adults, many adults, (I won't speak for all of them, but for many of them), they feel like they'd like to avoid feeling foolish or embarrassed. And making mistakes can oftentimes result and make someone feel foolish or embarrassed.
And so I think it's a… it's a lot like walking into quicksand, where we struggle to get out of it. The most normal thing one does: They kick. They move their arms really quickly. And all it seems to do is sync us faster into that quicksand that we're trying to get out of.
And the way out, you might ask, is actually to lean back and make more contact with the surface of that quicksand. To make more contact with the sand. And that allows us to kind of roll out of it.
So I think adults are often struggling against the change, struggling against feeling embarrassed, and they end up just sinking faster and clinging more tightly to what they've always known, which sinks them faster.
Matthew: We’ll be back in just a moment.
[BREAK]
Matthew: Welcome back.
Today on the podcast we’re talking about pronouns: what they are, why we use them, and what they communicate. We’ve talked about finding the language that best fits you at this point in time. And we also talked about unlearning and growing and welcoming in new knowledge.
This all might be a lot to take in if hearing it or if exploring the topic for the first time, so let’s pause to check in before we go any further. How does thinking about people’s diverse use of pronouns make you feel?
Turn to a neighbor, a grownup, a classmate, or a friend and share. Make sure you listen to their response as well. And if you’re listening on your own, you can think your response to yourself or you can share it aloud with me. I may not be able to hear you, but I promise that I am always listening.
How does thinking about people’s diverse use of pronouns make you feel?
Lee: Hmm. That's a really, really thoughtful question.
I personally feel excited that young people have the opportunity to think about all the different options that are out there and choose something that best fits them, rather than having other people tell them what their pronouns are, and then having to adjust how they feel to the pronouns.
And that's really exciting.
Courtney: I think I feel filled to the brim with hope. I feel very hopeful that people are changing their pronouns. That they are creating new words that didn't exist prior to describe how they are and how they feel, how they feel in their body. That gives me a lot of hope that maybe we can expand beyond this binary of she/him.
Matthew: I’d like to read to you one my favorite pages from A Kids Book About Pronouns. It goes like this: “One of the best things we can do when we’re not sure about something is ask questions about it. Learning new things brings discomfort, but that isn’t a bad thing. It’s an opportunity to grow!”
When I shared this back with Lee and Courtney, they were excited to take the thought even further.
Lee: Questions are one of the most important parts of learning, along with making mistakes, but I do want us to remember that it's not the job of queer and trans people to teach us about pronouns or the origins of pronouns.
Yet asking questions is okay. It's really, really okay. For example, a lot of kids might wanna ask the question, “What are pronouns?” And some people might take the time to answer. And other people might refer you to books like A Kids Book About Pronouns or podcasts like this one or other resources, and all of that is okay. Both responses are okay.
Courtney: And I think the question itself is a helpful question. So when you're growing you might experience aches and pains in your body, and this is actually just a developmental and important part of growing, of literally getting bigger. And we call those things “growing pains”.
And as you grow you also get to have these cool new experiences like riding a bike or reaching the top shelf. I still haven't had that experience 'cause I'm 5’1”, but maybe one day.
But there's a lot of discomfort when we learn something new. And especially when it counters something old that we've learned.
And so when we're asking questions, when they're in the direction of growth, it's important to ask about those to have some understanding. But also sometimes just to do, you don't have to have full understanding to use someone's pronouns to describe them as they would describe themself.
Matthew: Our time’s almost up. I’m about to send you back out into the world. So let’s take a moment to consider how we can use this knowledge we gained together to help look out for the people with whom we share this world: our friends, our classmates, our family, our community.
Courtney? Lee? Are there any actions we, the listeners, can take to help support our classmates, siblings, and friends in whatever pronouns they are using or exploring?
Courtney: There are so many ways to support other people on this journey. And so one way is to share your own pronouns. So for example, when I introduce myself, I'll say, “Hi, I'm Courtney. I use they/them pronouns.” And if I forget, I just simply go back and say, “Oh! I forgot to share my pronouns. It's they/them.
Lee: Well, I actually get questions from kids in therapy about what to do. And one of the questions I get a lot from kids is if they don't know someone's pronouns, they forgot to ask, but they've already been talking for a while and they're in a group, what do they do?
And we talk about and practice, 'cause practice is helpful. Sometimes practicing how you're going to say it. We say, okay, let's just pause and say, “Ah, I forgot to ask your pronouns.” And then you just know. And if someone doesn't know their pronouns, which happens from time to time, you can say “That makes sense” and just move on.
Courtney: I think something else we talk about that we really love to do at home is also just inclusive language.
Lee: Yeah. I use inclusive language.
Courtney: And inclusive language is that language that doesn't assume gender and place that upon someone. So rather than saying “Ask the boy in the blue shirt”, you could simply say, “Ask the kiddo in a blue shirt.” And rather than saying, “Are you two sisters”, you could simply ask, “Are you two siblings?”, which helps to not assume gender.
And inclusive language really honors that everyone's gender is their own. And you can't know simply by looking.
Matthew: So much to remember. So much to know and understand. So many opportunities to grow and to welcome in and to include. I am so grateful to Courntey and to Lee for how they showed up in this space today.
Which reminds me, they had one more thing to share before we go.
Courtney: Yes. Just our last thing.
Lee: Mm-hmm. So we wanted to say that no matter which pronouns you use, if you use any, you are important, lovable, valuable, and no matter how much you change…
Courtney: …that never will.
[CLOSING]
Matthew: Thank you to Dr. Courtney Wells and Lee Wells, authors of A Kids Book About Pronouns, for joining us today. And special thanks to Jonah for lending their voice to this episode.
Jonah: Maryland. Hi, my name is Jonah, I'm 13 years old, and I live in Ellicott City, Maryland.
Matthew: A Kids Book About: The Podcast is written, edited, and produced by me, Matthew Winner. Our executive producer is Jelani Memory.
And this show was brought to you by A Kids Co.
Follow the show wherever podcasts are found and check out other podcasts made for kids just like you by visiting akidsco.com.
Join us next time for a conversation about public health with A Kids Book About author Becca Yanniello.